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1.5TSI Evo manual - Possible first gear jumpiness?

27K views 31 replies 18 participants last post by  Hayden mills 
#1 ·
Incidentally, is anyone worried about some reports of first gear jumpiness with this engine on the Arona, Karoq and T-Roc ?
Thought I'd start a new thread for this. Apologies for referencing other forums, but the volume of posts regarding kangarooing in first gear with the 1.5TSI engine already used on other models is a little worrying, but worth a read - especially the later posts.

Arona 1.5TSI Evo:
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/our-cars/seat-arona/hopping-mad-with-the-arona/

T-Roc 1.5TSI:
https://www.trocforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=266&sid=2d31225b1987e82e99c14db5735999ce

Karoq 1.5TSI:
https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/446820-15-sel-first-gear-issue/

To summarise: It seems widely experienced, but some have it others don't. Dealers often simply say it's driving style that needs adjusting (especially for former diesel drivers). Some software updates seem to have been applied with variable success. Other more recent posts suggest it's more mechanical rather than software. Latest posts suggest the VW Group are aware of a problem, but no sign of a fix.

With the first 1.5 TSI Ateca now imminent, it'll be interesting to hear any early reports. Perhaps I'd have been better off with the old 1.4TSI engine as originally ordered…..
 
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#4 ·
Picked up my new Ateca 1.5 fr mid-November can confirm the jumpiness in 1st gear,I have found it to be worse on restarting after a short break.I have noticed the revs seem to be increased which you wouldn't expect,so potentially more fuel being metered in than req.but not being expert this is no more than a hunch.hoping to hear from people they do have the knowledge..
 
#5 ·
This isn't just limited to the 1.5. I also find it annoying with my 1.4 to get the revs balance right in stop / start traffic. I find I'm either over-revving and working the clutch, or trying a classic diesel start (just lift the clutch without any revs) which can result in jumpiness / kangarooing!!!. All followed by the lovely crunch of the box from 1st into 2nd. I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles in 40 years without this issue so I'm not blaming myself quite yet. At the dealer first thing tomorrow so they can test drive it. This will give them a chance to check out the ride as well.
 
#6 ·
Picked our car up last week and both my wife & I have managed to stall the car on a number of occasions starting off from stationary. Seems worse after the car has warmed up. Changed the view on the consol last night so it shows the rev counter but it would appear theres a dead spot between idle and 2500 revs in 1st once the engine has warmed up.
 
#7 ·
Honest John in the Telegraph made this comment yesterday.

The whisper is that VW is well aware of a problem on 1.5 TSI Evo 150 engines subjected to the new WLTP emissions and fuel consumption tests, and is working to cure low-speed jerkiness. It should be coming through in the next few weeks and is worth the wait. Deliveries of new cars with this engine have been held up as a result.
 
#8 ·
I've had my 1.5 for a week or two now. I don't notice what I would describe as jumpiness, but I do notice the very bad dead spot, which means you need to use first gear at low speeds and therefor need expert clutch control or a you will have a jumpy drive. As for driving style, I am not coming from a diesel - I'm coming from an Ibiza with the 1.4 engine - so shouldn't be that different (and also an S2000, which is very different, but that is expected! :lol: ).

Will be keeping an eye on this to see if they do release an update and will be straight in to get it sorted.
 
#9 ·
OK, yeah I get the jumpiness now. On a cold fresh start, need to crawl around the car park or off my drive. Usually in any other car I'd change to second, (maybe foot off the clutch) and coast around. However since second has that dead spot, I'm leaving it in first. This causes kangarooing. To be fair this would probably happen in any other car as first gear isn't designed for slow crawling, it is just to get you initially moving. But since we can't use second, we have to use a jumpy first.
 
#10 ·
Brenngun said:
Picked our car up last week and both my wife & I have managed to stall the car on a number of occasions starting off from stationary. Seems worse after the car has warmed up. Changed the view on the consol last night so it shows the rev counter but it would appear theres a dead spot between idle and 2500 revs in 1st once the engine has warmed up.
I picked my 1.5 evo ateca up in December and have a thread about the jumpiness and losing throttle/ clutch not biting every so often causing a stall,

I took it in before Xmas for them to look at and technician drove it and said there wasn't anything up with it and it's driving fine, but by time i drove it to them it had warmed up so find it ok once the engines warmed up,

I had the 1.4 Tsi from when the ateca was released in 2017 and find this one not as good as the old engine I had!

Think seat know about the problem but don't want to admit it till they find a fix :roll:
 
#11 ·
I ordered a 1.5 tsi Evo Ateca FR last Thursday and discovered the possible problems with this engine. Contacted the dealer yesterday and he had no knowledge of any problems with the engine and either did Seat UK.

Today honest John put this update on his web site

Volkswagen acknowledges problem with 1.5 TSI Evo engine

Published 23 January 2019
Volkswagen has said that it's aware of a possible fault with its 1.5-litre petrol engine - and not ruled out a possible recall that could affect thousands of cars in the UK.

The 1.5-litre TSI Evo petrol engine made its debut in the Golf in 2017 and is now being rolled out across the range as a replacement for the old 1.4-litre turbocharged unit. It's currently available in the Golf, T-Roc and Arteon models as well as other Volkswagen Group vehicles.

HonestJohn.co.uk contacted Volkswagen after a report from a reader that his T-Roc 1.5 manual developed a 'kangarooing' sensation when cold - something we've also experienced in our SEAT Arona long-term test car.

-- ADVERTISEMENT --

In a statement from Volkswagen in Germany, the company said: "Volkswagen is aware of reports from customers complaining that some vehicles featuring the 1.5-litre TSI Evo engine with manual gearbox can be slightly hesitant in the cold-running phase.

"We are currently developing a solution to prevent these rare effects in the affected vehicles."

When pushed about whether this could lead to a recall for all 1.5-litre Volkswagens in the UK, a spokesperson said they had "no further info to add to the statement at this stage".

With the launch of the 1.5-litre engine, Volkswagen bucked the downsizing trend by replacing a 125PS 1.4 four-cylinder unit with a 1.5 four-cylinder producing 150PS. The move was intended to improve performance as well as provide better real-world fuel economy.

The upcoming Volkswagen T-Cross small crossover is also set to use the 1.5-litre TSI Evo engine

I have asked the dealer what my options are regarding a change of engine as he can no longer deny the problem exists.

How bad is the kangaroo/dead spot? Seriously considering walking away from the car and my deposit :cry:
 
#13 ·
Had ours for 3 weeks now during which time the weather has of course been cold and experienced this issue a few times to the extent that the car generalls stalls (it happens after being stationary in the cold phase) but it starts automatically and hasn't actually caused a problem. Now we are aware of it we try to remember to bump up the revs in those cases and not to change up too early - sounds a pain but really it isn't. Pleased that VAG have admitted the issue and look forward to a fix but I wouldn't lose sleep over it, its a minor issue and the car itself is very capable.
 
#14 ·
Onlyhalfmad said:
How bad is the kangaroo/dead spot? Seriously considering walking away from the car and my deposit :cry:
I work at SEAT and drive 1.5 Manual Ateca's often.

Whilst I do agree there is an effect of kangarooing between first and second. I can't feel a dead spot whilst accelerating.

Hopefully an ECU update or gear ratio difference will spot the kangarooing. We'll see what VW comes up with.

It is livable though in the meantime.
 
#15 ·
I test drove a manual 1.5 and felt the kangaroo, but to be honest it's not the first small engine that does that. I just pull away in first hold it longer in the gear and change to second.

I ordered the dsg and please to say 50 miles in its very smooth and a completely different experience to the manual. Not that it was bad, just felt the dsg was a better fit.
 
#17 ·
Onlyhalfmad said:
I ordered a 1.5 tsi Evo Ateca FR last Thursday and discovered the possible problems with this engine. Contacted the dealer yesterday and he had no knowledge of any problems with the engine and either did Seat UK.

Today honest John put this update on his web site

Volkswagen acknowledges problem with 1.5 TSI Evo engine

Published 23 January 2019
Volkswagen has said that it's aware of a possible fault with its 1.5-litre petrol engine - and not ruled out a possible recall that could affect thousands of cars in the UK.

The 1.5-litre TSI Evo petrol engine made its debut in the Golf in 2017 and is now being rolled out across the range as a replacement for the old 1.4-litre turbocharged unit. It's currently available in the Golf, T-Roc and Arteon models as well as other Volkswagen Group vehicles.

HonestJohn.co.uk contacted Volkswagen after a report from a reader that his T-Roc 1.5 manual developed a 'kangarooing' sensation when cold - something we've also experienced in our SEAT Arona long-term test car.

-- ADVERTISEMENT --

In a statement from Volkswagen in Germany, the company said: "Volkswagen is aware of reports from customers complaining that some vehicles featuring the 1.5-litre TSI Evo engine with manual gearbox can be slightly hesitant in the cold-running phase.

"We are currently developing a solution to prevent these rare effects in the affected vehicles."

When pushed about whether this could lead to a recall for all 1.5-litre Volkswagens in the UK, a spokesperson said they had "no further info to add to the statement at this stage".

With the launch of the 1.5-litre engine, Volkswagen bucked the downsizing trend by replacing a 125PS 1.4 four-cylinder unit with a 1.5 four-cylinder producing 150PS. The move was intended to improve performance as well as provide better real-world fuel economy.

The upcoming Volkswagen T-Cross small crossover is also set to use the 1.5-litre TSI Evo engine

I have asked the dealer what my options are regarding a change of engine as he can no longer deny the problem exists.

How bad is the kangaroo/dead spot? Seriously considering walking away from the car and my deposit :cry:
I have the dead spot as well, occasionally when I go to pull away there's no power and dribbles forward at 3 or 4 mph, only way I can rectify it is dropping back into neutral and put back into 1st again but is annoying when you pulling out and stuck halfway across the road 😟
Seems as if it has stalled but it's still on 1000 revs so obviously hasn't

Hopefully a VW fix comes soon as prefer driving my works van atm than the car!
 
#18 ·
Just thought I'd provide an update on the 1st gear jumpiness and the 2nd gear flat spot after 2 months of ownership.

Firstly I can rule out various theories from all the other forums (and save you all time from reading hundreds of comments). Grade of petrol, drive mode, revving the engine before starting off, disabling Auto-Hold, disabling Stop/Start or any other such theories all make no difference at all.

VW seem to have acknowledged a problem with cold engines, but I can also confirm it definitely occurs with a warm engine (that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in a possible VW fix). In fact, I think mine is worse with a warm engine and this needs to be made clear.

I have learnt to work around the 1st gear jumpiness in two ways. Firstly, if inching forward in traffic or making a slow getaway, simply lift the clutch without accelerating, then when the clutch is up, feather on the acceleration. The revs will rise on their own to about 1100-1200rpm when lifting the clutch (presumably anti-stall does this) and the car sets off smoothly. This is fine for bumper-to-bumper traffic which would otherwise be a jumpy nightmare. But for a faster start, there is no other option than to rev the engine more than you would normally expect to do.

What is baffling is the unpredictability of behaviour. Some days I get no jumpiness at all, other times under exactly the same conditions the car falters. Some days it can behave well all journey then suddenly start playing up. I suppose the fact that the car can behave OK should be an encouragement in that it is more likely to be a software (fixable) issue than a fundamental hardware design issue.

Most concerning for me is the flat spot at low revs in second gear, because this happens in real-life situations such as approaching a roundabout or when turning right against traffic. It also happens at low revs in higher gears, but I think these are less likely to be situations for normal driving.

This problem can easily be demonstrated by finding a quiet road, then gradually slowing down in second gear, such that speed drops to 5-10 mph and crucially the revs drop below 1000rpm. If you then hit the accelerator, the car just does nothing for about 10 seconds - revs stay the same, the engine doesn't stall, it just leaves you in limbo. This is exactly the situation that can occur slowing down towards a roundabout without stopping, then accelerating around it. The only option is to slam the moving vehicle into first gear and accelerate away - but that's not something I've ever had to do in many years of driving and is not very desirable (nor surely necessary).

It is disappointing and surely something the VW Group should not have allowed to happen with a new engine, but all in all it doesn't spoil an otherwise excellent car. I hope we get a recall/update to sort this out, so it's in our interests to keep up the pressure about this problem.
 
#19 ·
I had my car in the garage yesterday to fit some extras. I asked them to look into the this engine issue as I have experienced it too. On picking up the car, was told they found nothing wrong and suggested "these engines can be sensitive". They said if it continued to rebook in with them and a technician would come on a drive with me. I hope they have logged the issue on their records in case SEAT start data gathering etc.
 
#20 ·
I've had my 1.5 TSI manual Skoda Karoq for a week. I love the design/drive except for the fact I keep 'stalling' at junctions and kangaroo hopping until I get up to about 20mph. Initial I though it was my driving position, but I am glad I found this forum.

I frequently have to pull away from very busy junctions. Several times now I have gone to pull away quickly, but the revs drop off and the car stops moving. Scary when an HGV is coming at you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is DANGEROUS and need fixing before I get killed. I now need to massively over rev the engine and slip the clutch to ensure I avoid the dead zone - this time of year this leads to the traction control kicking on as I screech off the line with a rapidly wearing out clutch.
 
#21 ·
Jezza2911 said:
I've had my 1.5 TSI manual Skoda Karoq for a week. I love the design/drive except for the fact I keep 'stalling' at junctions and kangaroo hopping until I get up to about 20mph. Initial I though it was my driving position, but I am glad I found this forum.

I frequently have to pull away from very busy junctions. Several times now I have gone to pull away quickly, but the revs drop off and the car stops moving. Scary when an HGV is coming at you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is DANGEROUS and need fixing before I get killed. I now need to massively over rev the engine and slip the clutch to ensure I avoid the dead zone - this time of year this leads to the traction control kicking on as I screech off the line with a rapidly wearing out clutch.
Hi - just for anyone interested - as per earlier links there is a MASSIVE thread on this on the T-ROC forum (70,000 views as of 11th feb 2019)

There is also a post (by me) for anyone who finds the kangaroo/jumpiness too much and wishes to return their car (as you are entitled to do under UK law). This isn't encouraging anyone to do that - its to provide the detail /process for anyone that is interested.

https://www.trocforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=879

Good luck to all!
 
#22 ·
I'll just leave this opinion from the moderator of the VW/Audi forum.

"The problem comes down to VAG struggling to get the car to pass the insanely stringent EU6c emissions standards in the cold running phase when an internal combustion engine needs more fuel, what we used to know as "choke" in olde days. The programming of the engines computer has to be "generic" in that it can adjust itself to the car it is fitted to as all cars vary slightly and also cope as the car ages and things wear. The EU really does need to back off on this CO2 obsession, it is causing havoc for all manufacturers who sell cars in the EU."
T
 
#23 ·
Just thought I would update dealer was a bit reluctant to do anything but SEAT UK have been great. Didn't really want a diesel but have swapped for the 2 litre TDI arriving in March.

Think one of my biggest worries has been we get a perfectly good 1.5 and SEAT fixes it until it is broken if that makes sense. If it arrived with a fault that can't be fixed it's an easy reject.
 
#24 ·
Hi.
I have a Skoda Octavia 1.5 with the same problem regardless of engine temperature.
Now there is a mileage of 4050km. I'm tired of the kangaroo!
Dealer, representative office, Skoda info - they all just make promises. This may last forever until we lose the warranty.

I decided to try to integrate people with the same problem together, perhaps this will give us the advantage and leverage.

Form to fill:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe7vQ5F_JcVY3DVz9MgouVm80nkVfO011K-YPYMIVxX3_HrKw/viewform
Response database:
<GOOGLESHEETS id="1Rcxk0Ap9gKeFd6UWN2vPmEaPtR106eyZ0sOHSDGW8E4" url="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rcxk0Ap9gKeFd6UWN2vPmEaPtR106eyZ0sOHSDGW8E4/edit?usp=sharing">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rcxk0Ap9gKeFd6UWN2vPmEaPtR106eyZ0sOHSDGW8E4/edit?usp=sharing</GOOGLESHEETS>

Perhaps this form will not gather a lot of people, but at least we need to try.
 
#25 ·
Amended topic title to include "low revs flatspot (esp. 2nd gear)" and removed "Possible" from the "Possible first gear jumpiness" as it's now actual!
 
#26 ·
dbj - do you get it in your 1.4 then?

When this topic / kangarooing first came up I mentioned that I've been getting this with my 1.4 for a long time. It seems that I have to use what would normally be viewed as excessive revs otherwise I get bogged down. Balancing the revs and clutch can be a real PITA not helped by the gap in the first and second gear ratios. I've not had a car this awkward to drive in traffic and I really wish I had gone for the DSG now.
 
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