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aleao said:
wiz2003 said:
Unless something has changed - suggest not by the comment on the instructions, this only works if you have Mapcare.
You may have Mapcare now, but I don't as I believe that it was not offered by Seat until 2019.
So, I was not offered it at the time of purchase, Seat UK have tried, via the dealer, to have my maps updated on numerous occasions but they have now confirmed in writing that Mapcare is only available as a factory installed option and cannot be retrofitted, so I cannot legally update my SD cards (I have 2, version 3 and version 6).
It took me 3 years and many letters and phone calls to finally get Seat Spain and Seat UK to sing off the same hymn sheet...
I suspect that Mapcare can be retrofitted IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT TOOLS, but with Seat UK that is not the case. The Seat Tech's do not even understand what can be done with OBDEleven as the car is basically a computer with an engine and wheels...
Yes, in Portugal is the same, SEAT says that is not possible to retroffit Mapcare... (in the Navi System Plus)
But that is strange because there's a price on SEAT site for the Mapcare, around 500 euros.
https://www.seataccesoriescatalogue.net/pt/product/product/40/1978/4267
or in Germany
https://www.autos-erleben.de/teile-zubehoer/seat-mapcare/

If Mapcare cannot be retrofitted why there's a price for it?

So, I'm using G. Maps and Waze... and I don't think a good idea to pay for the SEAT (and others brands) very expensive and useless navigation systems.
That is the product that Seat UK had arranged to fit in my car, but failed after many hours as Mapcare needs to be enabled at the factory - according to Seat UK.
 

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Dibs said:
As said already Mapcare is a service that Seat sell it isn't something on the device. They will do the updates for you but it is easy to do yourself by following the instructions, and keep a copy of the original card on your PC should anything happen you can always get back to the original position.
I believe that you should be able to buy it now - but it must be specified on the factory order.
 

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I continue to update the maps on my SD card via the VW download site and following the instructions provided earlier in this topic.
I was told by the dealership to download them from the VW site, and there is nothing on the download page prohibiting you from downloading them.

I certainly wouldn't pay Seat to update them for me or supply a "new" card. From what I have read the "new" cards that they supply for an extortionate price are usually not even the most recent available maps!

What I find frustrating is that the last few map updates, including the latest (1430), have the speed limits wrong on so many roads.
Quite a few side roads are showing as 20mph when they have never been that speed. Quite a few dual carriageways with national speed limit are showing as 60mph!
You may wonder why that matters.
Reason 1: Inaccurate calculation of routes and expected journey times.
Reason 2: With TSR you can use a feature to warn you when you are X mph over the speed limit. If it thinks the speed limit is 60 on a 70 road and you have the warning set for +5 it will warn you at 65 not 75 which is pointless/useless!
Reason 3: The principle of them getting it right!

Like many people I usually connect my phone and use Waze so on these occasions reason 1 is not relevant, but I do sometimes use the built in sat nav, particularly if I want the map displayed on the digital cockpit and then reason 1 does matter!

If VAG cannot get the engine software right (1.5 TSI issues) and cannot supply correct maps I dread to think what their fully automated cars will be like!
The dealerships will probably tell you "Well sir, the reason that you kangaroo'd down the wrong road at the wrong speed is due to the way you were sitting in the car. I suggest that you adjust your sitting posture."
 
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Discussion Starter · #84 ·
Paul.Cambs said:
As long as you have the SD card version you can still update yourself provided you follow the instructions on this forum carefully (ie make sure you keep a copy of the overall.nds to copy back to your SD card which isn't mentioned on the formal sites)
It's not mentioned on the formal sites, because it's supposed to be (somewhat rudimentary) copyright protection.

wiz2003 said:
That is the product that Seat UK had arranged to fit in my car, but failed after many hours as Mapcare needs to be enabled at the factory - according to Seat UK.
I think that's correct, here's how I think this works. The MapCare in the device is just some form of metadata, which tells to the infotainment system, what map versions it should accept. If you buy your Ateca with 3 year MapCare, the infotainment is programmed to accept all map updates that have release date in this 3-year period. If you don't take MapCare, the infotainment is programmed to accept only the map version it's pre-programmed with. If you fiddle with the overall.nds file, you can get past this limitation (the new map looks like the old one with the old overall.nds).

When you replace the overall.nds with the one from the old map, the infotainment system still recognizes, that there's something wrong with the map. It shows the map all right, but it logs a fault code. I've seen this on my own car: when I use a newer map with the old overall.nds, I get constant fault code stating "Map authorization failure" etc. If I clear this fault, it comes back immediately. Only when I install the original map, and then clear the fault codes, this fault stays away. The fault is not visible to the driver, you can only see it with the proper diagnostic software, like VCDS.
 

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wiz2003 said:
It took me 3 years and many letters and phone calls to finally get Seat Spain and Seat UK to sing off the same hymn sheet...
I suspect that Mapcare can be retrofitted IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT TOOLS, but with Seat UK that is not the case. The Seat Tech's do not even understand what can be done with OBDEleven as the car is basically a computer with an engine and wheels...
Can you enlighten us ? :D
 

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vectra said:
wiz2003 said:
It took me 3 years and many letters and phone calls to finally get Seat Spain and Seat UK to sing off the same hymn sheet...
I suspect that Mapcare can be retrofitted IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT TOOLS, but with Seat UK that is not the case. The Seat Tech's do not even understand what can be done with OBDEleven as the car is basically a computer with an engine and wheels...
Can you enlighten us ? :D
If you have obdeleven and you look at the subsystems it can change and you look at the structure and nature of the data, it is clear that the software drives virtually all of the hardware. That is no surprise.
There is potential to cause damage or make changes that could be dangerous....
I do not, and would not advise anybody to make changes that they do not understand or that have not been proven by somebody else.
I believe that the maps are controlled by a combination of the serial number of the SD card (which cannot be changed, hence the name of the card), the overall.nds and probably a value or checksum in the infotainment system.
The key is understanding the algorithm and knowing where the checksum value is written.

Because of the above, I am sure that Mapcare could be retrofitted.

I intend to investigate further when I have time....
 

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EricM said:
Can you (wiz2003) kindly explain the overall.nds 'fiddle'?
Ok
What we know is that the infotainment system is programmed with the ID of the SD card.
If the SD card is changed without Seat changing the infotainment system, the system will not function.

We also know that if you change the overall.nds file in any way, the satnav will not work.

If you use the same SD card and you substitute the original overall nds file, the satnav works...

But, in my experience, not 100%.
Every time that I have done this, I have noticed that the speed limit data does not match totally with the map data.
So, if I update my v3 SD card, originally map version 0635, with the same map data as my v6 card, the system sometimes gives me a dynamic speed limit that is wrong.
If I use the same data but on the original v6 card, there is no problem..

In writing this, I have realised that both cards still work in the car.
I need to try the new overall file in the old card....
Perhaps the overall.nds file is modified to take account of the SD card serial number and, say the chassis number of the car?

My 2 overall nds files are very different, perhaps a hashing algorithm based on a value from the car and the serial number of the SD card is applied.
 

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Sorry to sa wiz2003, this is not correct. Serial nr on SD? The cars vin mix in SD serials?
Once the SD is formated it's nothing left unless it's a hidden partition, this one havent....
I have tried to get i go on microsd on sd adaptor but this isent the SD. It has to meet the spesificon given by vendor.
The overall.nds is the uniq file and difference from eatch SD, this is your "serial nr"
I do belive that "map Care" just do a check of your uniq overall.nds then procede with update....
 

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Corvus said:
Sorry to sa wiz2003, this is not correct. Serial nr on SD? The cars vin mix in SD serials?
Once the SD is formated it's nothing left unless it's a hidden partition, this one havent....
I have tried to get i go on microsd on sd adaptor but this isent the SD. It has to meet the spesificon given by vendor.
The overall.nds is the uniq file and difference from eatch SD, this is your "serial nr"
I do belive that "map Care" just do a check of your uniq overall.nds then procede with update....
Sorry, NO. Wiz is quite correct.

Your hardware device (aka SD card) has a unique serial number. It forms part of the "CID" or Card IDentification. This is a hardware serial number, stored in a 128-bit register built into the memory controller of your card. It's not a file on the card and it's not a hidden partition. If you insert the card in your PC you can actually view this number with the right tools (Linux makes it a doddle).

Part of the SD card specification is that this number is unique to each card and is not modifiable. The exact phrasing used in a Samsung SD card datasheet is:

Every individual Read/Write (RW) card shall have an unique identification number. It is programmed during manufacturing and cannot be changed by card hosts.
(Sourced from Farnell electronics, here: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1836582.pdf )

A few older SD cards would actually let you change this register (just google it), even though they weren't supposed to according to the industry spec. But you need the right tools and right card to do so (and the new ones are locked down so that you can't).

The whole SatNav data protection and updating thing comes in two parts:
  • When your dealer sets up your car they 'pair' it with the SatNav data card. All this actually does is lock the head unit to only recognise an SD card with the specific CID of the card they installed for you.

    Change the card and it won't recognise it unless the dealers re-pair it for you (and that's why there's the extortionate price to get them to update it... they need to buy the new card for the updated data then charge X amount of fixed-labour to plug in the car and re-pair your head unit to the new card). In theory it should be a relatively trivial process if you have access to the tools to do it.

    What this means for you is most people will be unable to change their SD card without going back to the dealer, unless they have the trade tools to reprogram their car or are lucky enough to have a spare old SD card that allows them to clone the CID of their dealer-fit card.
  • The second part is the licence and MapCare 'thing'. If you actually read the teeny, tiny writing on the SD card box it says "comes with 1 year of updates" (one year, my foot!). Theoretically, my 2017/MY18 spec Ateca should have been able to get updates until mid 2018 if the dealer had bought, loaded and paired the latest card (but they didn't... one from 2016 is what I got; thanks guys). Also, I rarely use SatNav so never bothered trying to update it in the first year to see if it worked or not.

    As discussed on this and several other threads, the MapCare element is something coded in the head unit to accept generic updates for 3 or more years. I would hazard a guess that it's probably from date of manufacture (not registration) and as it's to do with fees for map data etc. it needs to be hardware enforced. That is pure speculation though as I'm not in the business of reverse-engineering my car's hardware components.
 

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Etchings said:
Sorry, NO. Wiz is quite correct.

Your hardware device (aka SD card) has a unique serial number. It forms part of the "CID" or Card IDentification. This is a hardware serial number, stored in a 128-bit register built into the memory controller of your card. It's not a file on the card and it's not a hidden partition. If you insert the card in your PC you can actually view this number with the right tools (Linux makes it a doddle).

Part of the SD card specification is that this number is unique to each card and is not modifiable. The exact phrasing used in a Samsung SD card datasheet is:

Every individual Read/Write (RW) card shall have an unique identification number. It is programmed during manufacturing and cannot be changed by card hosts.
(Sourced from Farnell electronics, here: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1836582.pdf )

A few older SD cards would actually let you change this register (just google it), even though they weren't supposed to according to the industry spec. But you need the right tools and right card to do so (and the new ones are locked down so that you can't).

The whole SatNav data protection and updating thing comes in two parts:
  • When your dealer sets up your car they 'pair' it with the SatNav data card. All this actually does is lock the head unit to only recognise an SD card with the specific CID of the card they installed for you.

    Change the card and it won't recognise it unless the dealers re-pair it for you (and that's why there's the extortionate price to get them to update it... they need to buy the new card for the updated data then charge X amount of fixed-labour to plug in the car and re-pair your head unit to the new card). In theory it should be a relatively trivial process if you have access to the tools to do it.
If this is true how come I can buy a random SEAT card from Ebay which works?
 

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Etchings said:
The whole SatNav data protection and updating thing comes in two parts:
  • When your dealer sets up your car they 'pair' it with the SatNav data card. All this actually does is lock the head unit to only recognise an SD card with the specific CID of the card they installed for you.

    Change the card and it won't recognise it unless the dealers re-pair it for you (and that's why there's the extortionate price to get them to update it... they need to buy the new card for the updated data then charge X amount of fixed-labour to plug in the car and re-pair your head unit to the new card). In theory it should be a relatively trivial process if you have access to the tools to do it.

    What this means for you is most people will be unable to change their SD card without going back to the dealer, unless they have the trade tools to reprogram their car or are lucky enough to have a spare old SD card that allows them to clone the CID of their dealer-fit card.
Not really... When I collected the car - SD was not in the slot, missed that on the evening collection. Reported to dealers following morning and they said - it must be forgotten in factory, then forgotten on pre-delivery inspection and on collection demo ;) what a coincidence. Then they ordered new one for me and I picked it up at dealers in original foiled DVD-size box week later.

As it was not opened before, and dealer had no access to my car in between I presume the "pairing and locking" process is on first use.
This is pretty common practice on some paid satellite tv providers. The decoding card is paired with decoder box on first use.

Anyway... My SD card was write-locked (switch) I don't think it was pre-programmed to use only on one car. This would make the whole manufacturing process pretty complicated and expensive. Also that would make no sense to use removable storage with only 1:1 pairing. IMHO it would be much easier and cheaper to build it in.

So I presume (thinking aloud): new car is open and unlocked to any card. (This would allow to use any map - region eg Europe 1, Europe 2, Middle East etc...) Upon first use it gets paired and locked to the card and further changes (if possible) must be done at dealers.

This would significantly reduce cost (almost no further changes) and flexibility - get map only for region of use.

It looks my explanation is like an extension what's been said above. I just don't think it's done by dealers on each card - I believe it's done automatically on first use.
 

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I believe the overall.nds has an enbedded/encrypted copy of the SD card serial number, and all the head unit does it check the .nds and card serial number match.

this is why people can buy second hand SEAT SD cards off ebay and they work as they have a matching nds file to serial number
 

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Chosan said:
If this is true how come I can buy a random SEAT card from Ebay which works?
News to me, and diverges from the information I've found when first looking into it, but ok, I'll have to concede that the head unit isn't explicitly paired to a single SD card (I genuinely thought it was). However... there is a restriction that is most certainly tied to the CID of the SD card. I was lucky enough to be able to experiment with an old SD card that allowed you to change the CID.

As PCH and Paul speculate:

Paul.Cambs said:
I believe the overall.nds has an enbedded/encrypted copy of the SD card serial number, and all the head unit does it check the .nds and card serial number match.

this is why people can buy second hand SEAT SD cards off ebay and they work as they have a matching nds file to serial number
Yes, I agree that would make the most sense.
 

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Etchings said:
Chosan said:
If this is true how come I can buy a random SEAT card from Ebay which works?
News to me, and diverges from the information I've found when first looking into it, but ok, I'll have to concede that the head unit isn't explicitly paired to a single SD card (I genuinely thought it was). However... there is a restriction that is most certainly tied to the CID of the SD card. I was lucky enough to be able to experiment with an old SD card that allowed you to change the CID.

As PCH and Paul speculate:

Paul.Cambs said:
I believe the overall.nds has an enbedded/encrypted copy of the SD card serial number, and all the head unit does it check the .nds and card serial number match.

this is why people can buy second hand SEAT SD cards off ebay and they work as they have a matching nds file to serial number
Yes, I agree that would make the most sense.
Ok
I will test my 2 working cards in my mates Seat...
My understanding is that they will not work as the car is a factor....
I will let you know....

And if that is the case then we might be able to crack this...
 

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When I picked up my car there was no SD card. The dealer said that they are never factory fitted as someone will probably nick it in transit. The card was sent to the dealer. I collected it in a sealed case a few days later, plugged it in any it worked fine.

I haven't bothered to get it updated (I have Mapcare for 4 years) because there have been no major changes in my area and I prefer to use Google or Apple Maps vía CarPlay when I need a navigator. The SEAT navigator is rubbish in comparison.
 
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Discussion Starter · #97 ·
Etchings said:
Yes, I agree that would make the most sense.
But why is there an overall.nds file in the update then? If the overall.nds contains information that is related to the specific card, that file should be missing from the downloadable update package, right?
 

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Im guessing but perhaps whose with mapcar can use any overall.nds file.

It's only some clever folk on forums like this that worked out that by keeping the one original supplied on the SD card upgrades were possible
 

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When your dealer sets up your car they 'pair' it with the SatNav data card. All this actually does is lock the head unit to only recognise an SD card with the specific CID of the card they installed for you.

Change the card and it won't recognise it unless the dealers re-pair it for you (and that's why there's the extortionate price to get them to update it... they need to buy the new card for the updated data then charge X amount of fixed-labour to plug in the car and re-pair your head unit to the new card). In theory it should be a relatively trivial process if you have access to the tools to do it.

What this means for you is most people will be unable to change their SD card without going back to the dealer, unless they have the trade tools to reprogram their car or are lucky enough to have a spare old SD card that allows them to clone the CID of their dealer-fit card.
Sorry to say, but this is categorically incorrect. I am now on my second Ateca. My first was a 2016 Xcellence, bought as an ex- demonstrator. It came with the Media System and Navigation V4. Obviously, navigation was already setup and working when I took delivery. As new map versions became available, I was nervous about screwing up the original card, so I bought another genuine Seat V4 from Ebay. When it arrived, I inserted the card and it worked straight out of the box, without changing anything.

This gave me the confidence to update the original card with each new map release, changing the overall.nds file each time for that on the original card, although I'm not sure that this is really necessary.

On my new Ateca, a 2019 Xcellence Lux, I took delivery of the car without the map card. The dealer handed me a V7 card three days later in a sealed box. NOTHING was paired by the dealer during setup. Before I was given the V7, I tried the duplicate V4 card from my 2016 Xcellence (containing the latest available maps and the overall.nds ). This also worked, without any problems and without changing anything.

The process of updating and downloading the latest maps from the VW website is fairly straight forward, having just updated my V7 card with the latest map release. I did change the overall.nds file, but next update, I won't update this file initially, just to see if it really does make any difference.

I would urge anyone to forget about paying exorbitant prices for Mapcare or Navigation Cards from dealers. Like I said, updating the maps from the VW website is a fairly straight forward process if you have a desktop/laptop and are reasonably computer savvy. The process is well documented on this forum. If you're nervous, get a second hand genuine Seat card from Ebay and give it a go (at your own risk, of course!).
 
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