Oil & Filter Change

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Pjhoworth
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by Pjhoworth » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:33 pm

Golfmk56 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:25 pm
First off there is no right and wrong answer - no use preaching to others when you don't know the circumstances.

Oil changes used to be every 6k miles when my father bought his first car in '71 and there was nothing like turbos to worry about. My Accord was still every 6k in 1997, then they changed it to every 9k ( other manufacturers had started to increase intervals ). I remember Audi claiming their C100 could go up to 20k before oil service and that was back in 80's.

The problem I have with people claiming they know best or what they used to do many years ago, is you appear to mis-interpret what long-life oil changes are - it's important to understand how it works before preaching it's rights and wrongs.

First off is the oil. The oil used in long-life is completley different to the oil used by Saabs and every other car in 1960's so pointless making a comparison.

Secondly folk mention 'dirty oil'. The oil will be different in a car that travels 5k per annum mainly on motorways to that of a car that travels 5k a year mainly in cities. Likewise it will be different to that of a car that travels 20k a year on motorways or 20k a year in cities. It will also be different to a driver who revs the engine to the limits and to the driver who drives with economy in mind. What I'm trying to say is we all treat our cars differently but you guys are saying the cars should undergo the exact same service routine? It's quite a bonkers idea when you think about it.

Modern technology can overcome this by inserting an oil degregation sensor - in effect the car decides when the oil needs changed. So when mechanics or salesmen or anyone else says the car requires oil changes every 2yr or 20K miles, they are wrong. What long-life means is the car can run for UP TO a maximum of 2yr or 20k miles. It's the car that determines when the oil requires changing based on how it's been driven - which seems perfectly sensible to me.

If people wish to change oil every 6000 miles then they may well be doing the right thing - then again, they may be throwing away perfectly good oil. It's their car, their money, their decision - it may well just be for piece of mind.

But I will say one thing - I have NEVER seen any evidence where long-life service is the cause of problems. Yes I've read so called experts telling you that but I've seen no evidence of it. Have cars on long-life experienced problems? Of course they have. Have cars that have been serviced every year or every 6 mths experienced problems? er yes. If your car were serviced every week you'd still encounter problems. There's no one rule suits everyone but personally I think a car that determines when it requires servicing is sensible. We rely and take for granted all other technology on board our cars, why should an oil degregation sensor be singled out for such mistrust?
"no use preaching to others when you don't know the circumstances"

You say the above yet are then preaching away, it's up to the individual when they want to change their oil be it when the car tells them, the dealership or when they feel like it needs doing.

As for Saabs most run on the same oil used in modern cars so I don't see your point there I'm afarid.

Fred99
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by Fred99 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:47 pm

Good post Golfmk56 - I totally agree with you.

I have probably been driving cars longer than anyone else on this forum. I can remember when you changed the oil about as often as you changed your underwear! After draining off the old oil you filled it with “flushing oil” and ran the engine fore a few minutes, drained it again and filled it up again with “proper” oil.

Things have moved on and modern oils bear no relationship to oils in the past. The recommendation for extended oil changes come from the manufactures and the oil companies. They have a huge vested interest to get you to change the oil as often as possible. Bigger sales for the oil companies and bigger service bills for the dealers.

Why on earth would any sane person chose to think that they know better?

As you say, it’s their decision, but when, on this forum, people seem paranoid about the cost of fuel, do some insist on paying a huge amount of money over time, to keep changing the oil? You can buy a tank full of fuel or two for the price of an oil change .

Also, it seems to me that the majority of their cars are on finance or lease and will be changed long before issues like oil change frequency would be relevant anyway.

I shall now go on put my tin hat on in preparation for comments from people who disagree with me, with, of course, no evidence to back up their claims.
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Tet70
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by Tet70 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:32 am

Pjhoworth wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:33 pm
As for Saabs most run on the same oil used in modern cars so I don't see your point there I'm afarid.
Oh no, they didn't. Oils have changed since the SAAB Turbo era. And LongLife oil is not the same kind of oil, what most modern cars use these days. Even VWAG cars use different (cheaper) oil, when configured for a fixed service interval.
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Sash
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by Sash » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:15 pm

Fred99 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:47 pm
Good post Golfmk56 - I totally agree with you.

I have probably been driving cars longer than anyone else on this forum. I can remember when you changed the oil about as often as you changed your underwear! After draining off the old oil you filled it with “flushing oil” and ran the engine fore a few minutes, drained it again and filled it up again with “proper” oil.

Things have moved on and modern oils bear no relationship to oils in the past. The recommendation for extended oil changes come from the manufactures and the oil companies. They have a huge vested interest to get you to change the oil as often as possible. Bigger sales for the oil companies and bigger service bills for the dealers.

Why on earth would any sane person chose to think that they know better?

As you say, it’s their decision, but when, on this forum, people seem paranoid about the cost of fuel, do some insist on paying a huge amount of money over time, to keep changing the oil? You can buy a tank full of fuel or two for the price of an oil change .

Also, it seems to me that the majority of their cars are on finance or lease and will be changed long before issues like oil change frequency would be relevant anyway.

I shall now go on put my tin hat on in preparation for comments from people who disagree with me, with, of course, no evidence to back up their claims.
You are correct in saying that if your car is on finance and you won't be keeping it for more than, say, four years, then it is perfectly ok to follow the manufacturer's instructions. But if you bought it for cash and plan to keep it for more than 6-7 years and 100K miles, every car mechanic worth his salt will tell you that changing the oil every 15K -20K miles may easily lead to the turbine and piston rings failure and other problems, wihen a modern turbo charged small displacement high temperature high pressure engine hits 100K or so, especially in urban cycle. I have no statistics at hand, but I talked to many mechanics who repair engines for older cars, incl. TSI, and they say pretty much the same - take the manufacturer's advice divide it by two and your engine will be much healthier and as clean as a nut in 10 years. (Excluding valves of course if it is direct injection) And that means - only good quality fuel and changing oil and filters every 5-7K miles or once a year whichever comes first. The older natural aspiration motors are much more tolerant and reliable from that point of view. If you are on a 4 year finance, then you are OK, your car will be running just fine, but the engine will be already quite dirty and deteriorating slowly.
As for manufacturers, they are under immense pressure from govts to reduce fuel and oil consumption hence so called long interval oil changes. By the end of the day everyone decides for himself whether an extra 100 pounds a year is worth paying to keep the engine clean.

Fred99
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by Fred99 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:37 pm

So, your " worth his salt" mechanic knows more than the engine manufacturer and the oil companies?

As I said before, the manufacturers and oil companies have far more to gain by reducing service schedules to the sort of intervals you are suggesting. Why do you think they don't do that? I would be interested in the opinion of your "worth his salt" mechanic on this.

It's not exactly a new practice. In 1985 I took delivery of a new high end Audi. I asked when I should bring it in for its first service - 20000m was the answer.

I don't agree with your assertion that governments are under pressure to reduce oil consumption - petrol/ diesel fuel yes. A good modern engine does not use a significant amount of oil. I have owned SEATs for nearly 20 years and I don't remember ever needing to top up the oil between services.
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Rory
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by Rory » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:50 pm

Fred99 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:47 pm
Also, it seems to me that the majority of their cars are on finance or lease and will be changed long before issues like oil change frequency would be relevant anyway.
I think this is the crucial bit - sure, if you're going to keep the car for 10yrs plus then change the oil more frequently. if you're going to change the car after 3 to 5yrs then all you're doing is being kind to the next owner. Which you may think is worthy.
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Sash
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by Sash » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:31 pm

Fred99 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:37 pm
So, your " worth his salt" mechanic knows more than the engine manufacturer and the oil companies?

As I said before, the manufacturers and oil companies have far more to gain by reducing service schedules to the sort of intervals you are suggesting. Why do you think they don't do that? I would be interested in the opinion of your "worth his salt" mechanic on this.
The way it works if you are interested is that ILSAC which is International Lubrication Stangartisation Committee is under pressure from environmental govt and EU bodies to reduce waste and they introduce new specs for oil such as the latest (correct me if I am wrong) GF-6B with the "enhanced economy". Oil manufacturers promote long life oil simply because of competition, noone want to say well our oil should be changed more often than the competitor's. Car manufacturers just follow the new standards and happy to advertise "low maintenance" vehicles. And as far as these standards do not harm vehicles while on warranty, it is perfectly fine. What happens after that - well, spare parts like EGR valves, DPF filters, turbos, etc
are not cheap, aren't they. Why do you think turbos that should last 150K miles break after just 40K? Core bearing failure? And why do you think that has happened??? So manufacturers actually gain by prolonging service intervals. But as I said before everyone desides for himself . The right interval depends on several factors like the fuel quality, weather, how hard is the driving cycle etc. One thing is certain it is good for your engine longevity to change the oil and filters more often. Noone will tell you that it is detrimental to its health.

Fred99
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by Fred99 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:46 pm

I don't think anyone would suggest frequent changes are detrimental to the health of the engine, just detrimental to your wealth and the environment.

It's obviously down to the individual when they decide to change, and the best option lies somewhere between the manufacturer's recommendation and your gut feel.

It just seems to me that people are being wrongly advised by the "worth his salt" aged motor technicians who are living in a time warp and don't seem to appreciate the vast changes that have happened in the industry particularly with regard to the latest fully synthetic oils.

If you do a bit of Googling on the subject you will find that in the US the period recommended by the one stop oil change outfits that seem to be prevalent there is still to change every 3000 miles! I cannot imagine that anyone on this forum would go along with that! Apparently even if you get them to use synthetic oil they still stick a "change your oil after 3000 miles" sticker on your windscreen!

The argument that many people change their cars within 3-4 years so it is not so critical seems valid, but to be fair, people who keep their cars for 10 years tend not to do a high mileage. It's not an issue for me personally as I do about 4000m a year and SEAT pay for my servicing for 4 years.
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BrianG
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by BrianG » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:08 pm

Since my previous post, my car has gone another 6 months without catastrophe, I kept an eye on the countdown, one thing I did find out is that if you book the service online you automatically get free breakdown service, I arranged with a human. Still loving the car 😍
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Paul.Cambs
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Re: Oil & Filter Change

Post by Paul.Cambs » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:22 pm

I was aware that I'd miss out on the breakdown cover as I arranged servicing directly with the dealer (the SEAT service), but when I spoke to the dealer to book in for the 2yr/2nd service they said they would include the AA cover free of charge - was a little surprised/pleased
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