Tyre wear

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Rory
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:31 pm

Re: Tyre wear

Post by Rory » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:25 pm

tobydog wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:51 pm
It was mentioned on an earlier thread that some garages won't swap front to back if the tread depth difference is too much. General rule is that more goes on the back, even with front wheel drive, so if you've worn your fronts down too far they won't do it.
That's kind of where my question about measuring came from - I thought the fronts looked pretty worn and was surprised the measured 4.5mm. I did wonder if they'd been left too long to put on the back, but then going into winter with tyres likely to be under 4mm by then isn't ideal.

In general the advice of best tyres on back is absolutely valid, but recent cars' ESP systems can cope with that. Costco absolutely will not put the more worn tyres on the back - caused some consternation when I bought a pair of fronts for my Merc which has different sizes front and rear. They tried to put the older rears on the front. Yet the MB handbook says their ESP is so good that if you're only fitting a pair of tyres then it's best to put them on the front so you get some advantage from them in steering. And that's on a RWD car.
Ateca SE-L 1.0TSi - Sept 18 - daughter's
Tiguan Match 2.0TDi 4Motion DSG - Sept 15 - wife's
Thinking about something with 7 seats to replace my old Mercedes C270CDi Estate


splashdubh
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:36 pm

Re: Tyre wear

Post by splashdubh » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:27 pm

" General rule is that more goes on the back, even with front wheel drive"

I expressly tell tyre dealers to put new tyres on the back and shift the back to the front ever since one dealer put two new tyres on the front. Ironically, there was a big Michelin poster on the wall stating that the rear wheels should have tyres with more tread.

They weren't too pleased when I made them switch the tyres around. Haven't used that dealer since.
Last edited by splashdubh on Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.


tobydog
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:04 am
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk

Re: Tyre wear

Post by tobydog » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:37 pm

Yes, the first thing many drivers generally think about with new tyres is that they want more tread on the front for better steering and better water clearance in order to avoid aqua-planning. What some people fail to consider is the impact of all that additional grip at the front on how the back tyres behave. The theory behind the Michelin poster probably comes from the understanding that it's easier to control under-steer that it is over-steer, and that more tread on the back helps resist this. Having had a lively (but fantastic) BMW 320 in the past, I know that over-steer was easy to induce in the wet regardless of how much grip you had at either end :shock: . With experience you can manage it to a degree and it feels intuitive. It's under-steer, when you're drifting across the road into the path of a lorry, that backing off the accelerator, avoiding the brakes, and having the front end regain grip feels counter-intuitive.

On the subject of the 1.6mm limit, this was also discussed on a previous thread. It was determined some years ago based on how much tread depth would be needed in order to disperse a certain amount of water, at a certain speed, and with a certain width of tyre. From what I recall, it was based on a tyre width of around 185. Tyres widths on many cars, including the Ateca, are now much wider than that so logic would suggest more tread depth required to achieve the same result. That's why you might see suggestions at some garages to change tyres at 3mm even though the law says 1.6mm.

Michelin are now making car and bike tyres which they say are just as effective at 1.6mm as they were when new. At least they've recognised the need for change even if the law hasn't.
Ordered March 20, 2017: 1.4TSI Xcellence manual in Rodium Grey. Extras - heated screen, SEAT Sound / Spare Wheel. Delivered and picked up on June 22, 2017 :D


Rory
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:31 pm

Re: Tyre wear

Post by Rory » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:58 pm

tobydog wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:37 pm
Having had a lively (but fantastic) BMW 320 in the past, I know that over-steer was easy to induce in the wet regardless of how much grip you had at either end :shock: .
How long ago are you talking about? ESP/ESC/DSC systems on 'prestige' cars for years, and every new car now, will stop that. I brutally tried to power-slide my Mercedes C Class around a greasy roundabout and it just went around it as if it was on rails.

The best tyres on the back rule should definitely be followed if you're letting your kids loose in an older hatchback though.
Ateca SE-L 1.0TSi - Sept 18 - daughter's
Tiguan Match 2.0TDi 4Motion DSG - Sept 15 - wife's
Thinking about something with 7 seats to replace my old Mercedes C270CDi Estate


Silvertouran
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:01 pm

Re: Tyre wear

Post by Silvertouran » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:24 am

Just replaced the last original rear tyre on my 1.6TDi at 69,000 miles. Falken Azenis. But nobody stocks these tyres so i now have Michelin Primacy 3 all round.


tobydog
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:04 am
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk

Re: Tyre wear

Post by tobydog » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:42 pm

Rory wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:58 pm
[quote=tobydog post_id=38851 time=<a href="tel:1570718257">1570718257</a> user_id=803]
Having had a lively (but fantastic) BMW 320 in the past, I know that over-steer was easy to induce in the wet regardless of how much grip you had at either end :shock: .
How long ago are you talking about? ESP/ESC/DSC systems on 'prestige' cars for years, and every new car now, will stop that. I brutally tried to power-slide my Mercedes C Class around a greasy roundabout and it just went around it as if it was on rails.

The best tyres on the back rule should definitely be followed if you're letting your kids loose in an older hatchback though.
[/quote]

Rory - it was the E36 model from 1996. Antilock breaks and that was it. Lovely 320 SE with silky smooth straight six. There is a great roundabout where the A14 links to the A12 which was great fun!
Silvertouran wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:24 am
Just replaced the last original rear tyre on my 1.6TDi at 69,000 miles. Falken Azenis. But nobody stocks these tyres so i now have Michelin Primacy 3 all round.
Silvertouran - bit late for me now as I’ve gone for the Falken Azenis FK453CC but what do you think of the Michelin’s compared to the Falken’s? That’s amazing mileage given that I’ve read so much about them wearing out too quickly.
Ordered March 20, 2017: 1.4TSI Xcellence manual in Rodium Grey. Extras - heated screen, SEAT Sound / Spare Wheel. Delivered and picked up on June 22, 2017 :D


Silvertouran
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:01 pm

Re: Tyre wear

Post by Silvertouran » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:03 am

I haven’t had a chance to try the Michelin on the front yet as i just got them on Saturday. I’ve has Bridgestone on the front and they are ok but they didn’t last as long as the Falkens that came with it.
This is front tyre wear as follows:-
Falkens lasted till 26,000 miles.
Bridgestone lasted till 46,000 miles (20,000)
Bridgestone lasted till 69,000 miles (23,000)
Michelin just fitted yesterday


Valleyboy
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:24 pm

Re: Tyre wear

Post by Valleyboy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:43 am

Tobydog, sorry I'm so late getting back to you about my Michelin Primacy 3's.
I've had them about 6 weeks now so can give a bit of feedback.
To me they feel livelier than the Falcons. The steering feels lighter. The car feels more agile but as a result less secure in the corners. Don't get me wrong, I've not got into any trouble, I don't push the car hard enough for that but they just feel less secure. I would say the difference feels like the Falcons had the steering in 'Sport' mode and since I've changed to Michelin the steering feels like it's been switched to 'normal'.
Might suit some people. I'm OK with it now I'm used to it.
I find the Michelins quieter than the Falcons ….although this goes against the db ratings quoted on Black Circles.
I'd say the Michelins are also more comfortable than the Falcons, seem to give a more cushioned ride which I like.
Someone else asked how you measure tyre tread depth ….I use a tyre tread depth gauge.
Falcons were 8mm depth from new.
These Michelins are 7mm depth from new.
I like the Michelins but for me the worth is in the mileage I get out of them, that's what helps me decide what I'll choose next.
I got 17,000 miles from my Falcons, I'll be pleased and surprised if I can get the same from the Michelins.


tobydog
Posts: 535
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:04 am
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk

Re: Tyre wear

Post by tobydog » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:01 pm

Thanks Valleyboy. The various reviews say that the Michelin has relatively soft sidewalls so that may well explain your driving experience.

I'm not expecting the Falken's to be more comfortable than my Bridgestone's but I do hope they will be a little quieter. The DB level for the Bridgestone is 71, the Falken is 67, and for the Michelin it's 68, however, this doesn't actually relate directly to cabin road noise. It's pass-by noise and is an environmental factor rather than a driver refinement factor.

I still wanted to maintain the sporty handling and wasn't too concerned with longevity because, at £81 a corner fitted, I can buy nearly two FK453CC's for the price of one Primacy 3. They only need to get me to around next June and hopefully I won't regret my decision.

Thanks again.
Ordered March 20, 2017: 1.4TSI Xcellence manual in Rodium Grey. Extras - heated screen, SEAT Sound / Spare Wheel. Delivered and picked up on June 22, 2017 :D


Tomstring
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:23 pm

Re: Tyre wear

Post by Tomstring » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:25 pm

Although I’ve swapped tyres front and rear in the past I don’t believe that’s best practice anymore on modern cars. Happy to be proven wrong. Thanks


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